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Post by Badwater on Apr 30, 2009 12:30:38 GMT -5
I am proposing some changes in the Base of the Cliffs and the Challenges. I am not proposing any layout changes here; these are the oldest areas in Talus and as such I'd like to leave them alone. Layout and quests here remain unchanged. What I want to change is content and encounters: Remove all undead - There are two reasons I'd like to be doing this: 1) The Haunted Crypts already exist for low level characters and has a story tied into the Old Adventurer in North Lomatin. The undead in the BOTC and Challenges seem completely out of place to me. 2) There are a ton of CEP monsters for early levels that weren't available when these areas of Talus were built, and I'd like to use them instead. This means that the 1050 and 1800 levels would have encounter changes and the zombies at the BOTC would be removed and other encounter types used instead. Base Of The Cliffs - As much as I don't think the goblins belong here, I'm loathe to change them. As I say, there's some Talus history here that shouldn't be messed with. Plus, they are the first challenge token so they get left alone. Instead, I would replace the undead with surface critters. Challenges Encounters - There are a lot of CEP cave creatures, so what I would like to be doing is remove the beetles, orcs, lizardfolk, trolls, goblins, etc. and use cave creatures and oozes instead. I would arrange the encounters so they get a bit harder the further down you go. The drow belong down there because they connect with the Cave of N'Kah. The duegar, however, are a different matter: They seem like they don't belong there to me. The DM in me loves the fact that they can be a huge challenge, but they seem out of place. So do you think they should stay? Should they go? (I'm going to update a duegar stronghold in the Underdark, btw). Should they maybe be in the 1800 level and have a secret door to the Underdark? I'm soliciting opinions on what to do with them to make sense, to the extent that can happen. Redo The Mine Temple - There's a lot of empty space here and the moving spectre down there doesn't need to exist. I'm all for suggestions here, but what I initially have in mind is to remove the undead element and add more of the crafting element. For example, keep coal there, remove iron from the Road To Alvar and put iron in the mine temple instead, stuff like that. If it's a mine temple, shouldn't there be evidence of it?  Comments, please! |
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Post by ellis on Apr 30, 2009 18:32:05 GMT -5
Removing the undead isn't a bad idea. Also I like the idea of having a cave from the duegar caves into the underdark, but I would suggest a locked door with a 40 dc or something to prevent new players from wandering into the wrong area. The duegar could be there because they are trying to mine minerals that they can't find in the underdark easily, and so they decided to steal some of the surfacers precious minerals. The mine temple should probably be filled with earth elementals as well, perhaps guardians of the mine temple or something. With enough elementals in there, a cleric with earth domain or something could use their turn undead against them as an added treat. Should have standard dwarves in the temple as well, rather then just one saying good job for collecting the 12 tokens. And of course make a bunch of them killable and respawnable, go evil characters! The standard dwarves could have a quest to kill the duegar, or the duegar could have one to kill the standard dwarves or something.
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Post by slidermike on May 1, 2009 8:29:40 GMT -5
Ellis brings up a good point we were just discussing the other day.
On talus there really isnt much for the "evil" character to persue like the "good or neutral" other than RP value imo.
Also when we all strive for nicer weapons and an evil char gets an evil weapon that works best vs good, where does he/she use it??? Since most "boss" monsters as well as epic areas are evil by design it would be fun for the people who have evil characters to have some place afforded them to let that evil out !!
Oh and speaking of the tokens.. IF we keep them can we please have them "un plotted" its a PITA removing them individually just to give a bag o holding with tokens in it. I really dont see much concern of player abusing the tokens.
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Post by Badwater on May 24, 2009 11:05:48 GMT -5
The Mine levels have been altered and are very close to the final update. The challenges get harder as you go down. Oh yeah, and these aren't the breeze-thorough-and-get-your-1000xp challenges. They are going to be challenging. So, yeah, you really did see a rust monster down there. The elementals do hit and hurt. Come prepared.
I set it up this way for two reasons: 1) To make the challenges challenging, and 2) To make the very low levels think about adventuring in less challenging areas; Lomatin Fields, the Haunted crypts, the orcs, the ogres.
I am now working on the Mine Temples. This will be a complete redo that will have altars to the minerals and gems found on Peridotia. After adventurers go through that there will be a Mine Temple of Cthorna, where a priest/priestess will take the place of Tolinar, and congratulate the adventurer before directing them to Cthorna - so it will be the last stop before going to the Volcano Floor, instead of the first stop off 1800.
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Post by Inviktus on May 24, 2009 11:35:34 GMT -5
I set it up this way for two reasons: 1) To make the challenges challenging, and 2) To make the very low levels think about adventuring in less challenging areas; Lomatin Fields, the Haunted crypts, the orcs, the ogres. Note that the mine levels were previously too hard for new players. So if they are now harder you'll need to mark them clearly off limits for low level characters so they won't try to enter them. |
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Post by Inviktus on May 24, 2009 11:40:39 GMT -5
Oh and speaking of the tokens.. IF we keep them can we please have them "un plotted" its a PITA removing them individually just to give a bag o holding with tokens in it. I really dont see much concern of player abusing the tokens. The best solution would be to change the mine temple reward script to delete all but the last token when the xp is granted. |
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Post by Badwater on May 25, 2009 0:20:31 GMT -5
I set it up this way for two reasons: 1) To make the challenges challenging, and 2) To make the very low levels think about adventuring in less challenging areas; Lomatin Fields, the Haunted crypts, the orcs, the ogres. Note that the mine levels were previously too hard for new players. So if they are now harder you'll need to mark them clearly off limits for low level characters so they won't try to enter them. I don't know that the mine levels are any harder than they were; the duegar, for example, are still a great way to die (and in fact that's where my test char has died, did fine in other levels). But the duegar aren't followed up by a few shadows in 1800, there's some elementals instead. The levels just get more challenging going down is all. If any player is using bad tactics in any given situation they're going to die. If you're going solo against a water elemental and don't want to die rolling a 1 on a drown attack, you use ranged attacks and running. We can't always accomidate the lowest common denominator. I've always maintained (and suggested for new players) that they get a few levels in the Beetle Nest, or the first level or two of the Haunted Crypts, or against the orcs. Or do the Fandar quests. Or do the Lomatin quests. If they are getting some gold with the beetles and stocking up on supplies, then they're going to live through the challenges - same as before. I think you're right, though, that some signs are in order along with some conversational feedback from NPCs, so I will set about including that. |
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Post by Badwater on May 25, 2009 0:22:20 GMT -5
The best solution would be to change the mine temple reward script to delete all but the last token when the xp is granted. Aren't the challenge tokens tied into what level(s) you can access in the mine shaft, though? That might be more trouble than it's worth. |
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Post by Inviktus on May 25, 2009 1:57:12 GMT -5
The primary historical problem with the challenges is they give an appearance of being a new player training area, much like ones on a large number of other servers.
However, they are not actually built in the way those areas are on the other servers. In those areas rewards are easy and death is non-existent.
It creates a confusion of expectations.
I'm not automatically against making the challenges harder. What I am suggesting is we let new players know they won't survive there.
Unfortunately, Talus still entirely lacks a new player start area in comparison to other servers I have played on.
On many popular servers it's not unusual to start at 2nd or 3rd level for free, then still be able to make another couple of levels solely by killing deer or even crafting.
On Talus, the starting difficulty curve is extremely steep by comparison.
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Post by Badwater on May 25, 2009 2:27:00 GMT -5
I agree 100%.
This begs the question of whether perhaps we should re-think some player starting areas. One solution might be to redo the areas between Peridotia Port and Alvar as a beginner area. Have swamps or wetlands with very low level encounters to Alvar.
Perhaps we should move Gers and the Beetle Nest to Peridotia? That would be easily done and it would be easier for the new player to deal with instead of figuring out how to get through a big city like Loamtin. Maybe have a road forking off the path to the Base of the Cliffs? Or have Gers by one of the houses in up the hill in the port with a transition there just for beetles?
Even when the starting point was in Lomatin, there have always been issues with having a clear beginner area. With having the Beetle Nest right there in Peridotia, that might make things easier for the true beginner to the server, and the rest of us who have been around awhile have some other options on other ways to get our new chars through the first bunch of levels.
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Post by ellis on May 25, 2009 10:44:05 GMT -5
I walked a level 9 wizard trough the new challenges, making sure to go everywhere I can to test all the new spawns, and it is actually more challengeing and fun, I died several times on the way down, mostly from the elementals and the gelatanous cubes that paralyze you. It was alot more fun dying since I didn't know what to expect.
Also, I like the idea of moving the beetles to peri, since new players really don't know about the beetles and by the time they do, they have gained 3 or 4 levels and it becomes useless to them and so when they make new characters they don't even think about it.
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Post by slidermike on May 25, 2009 16:06:03 GMT -5
So far my new Dwarven Fighter is lvl 3 and has just completed lvl 400. It sure is refreshing to not know whats coming, new monsters//.. love the troglodytes!  Lots of puddings/oozes so far. I ran into a particularly nasty cave werebat that wasnt too easy to beat with the DR they have but I was victorious. Def a winner so far BW.. thanks a load for making low lvl char playing enjoyable again.. Oh and I have died 1 time by them and once on purpose so i could relevel after having taken the wrong feat. doh I shall be going deeper, cautiously. |
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Post by slidermike on May 26, 2009 10:49:32 GMT -5
I am wondering out loud here.  What if instead of npc pointing you towards the other npc who tells you about the challenges and also the 2 other npc you can overhear talking about the firebeetle nesting grounds.. 4 npc already in the mix. What if instead we just put a fat readable sign in front of the new char creation spawn point in peri portal that said something like "new characters please see the merchants inn for supplies then head east to slay some beetles. After you have obtained a lvl or two try your hand at the challenges west of town." etc...? Nothing explicit but general points of interest and lvl gauges for said areas and a compass heading.. Just thinking out loud. |
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Post by Badwater on May 26, 2009 13:47:04 GMT -5
Some better signage might be in order; I don't see anything wrong with a sign at the information booth that further helps the newcomer to Talus.
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Post by Badwater on May 26, 2009 15:01:09 GMT -5
I just remembered that I did not set up the Beetles Nest to recognize Challenge tokens. Do not use your challenge token in the beetle nest until the next update!
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