place for mages

[dama]

Would you DM types please do the math? Take a look at the monsters in game; saving throws, spell resistance, etc. then make a few extremely effective arcane spellcasters (single class) of various levels to test with & see what it takes to defeat a (modification) *challenging* encounter. Make note of the casters DC/spell.

There has to be a reason why most of the classes played on Talus are fighters & rogues. Especially when they both have pitiful buffs available compared to the various spell casters. How come Deis is the only epic mage that goes adventuring? Bix does not count - he has said many time "I am not a battle mage, I am a crafter & merchant."

I think a mage should be able to kill one challenging monster with one of their best spells.

[Longtide]

This area will be made and it will be a challenge. I have absolutely no control over the xp system, but any time I'm in DM mode and I see a character or party having a fierce battle with any NPC's I've made, I've always rewarded them with extra XP for I know how hard some of these creatures are.

And for the record, I cant find the post anymore but I used to add XP tokens to the really hard encounters TOO make sure they were worth the time. But it soon became a bad idea to manage and I was absent from the server for a bit so the players were not getting to refund them. I would still like to have this looked at too in terms of a scripting possibility for cashing them in but I dont really think XP is a problem on this server with the amount of DM events and quests that go on.

And on that note, the DM's usually reward XP based off the DMFI xp token that gives anywhere from 5-50% of XP based of making the next level, which can be at times up to 10k xp for a big event.

In the last week alone I must have given out over 200k in XP to various characters that PARTICIPATED. Participation always pays in my books. I also make it a point to reward the pc or party with either gold or loot to make up for all the heals and res's they use.

People were mentioning that builders tend to design around what they play.

When I made the Lost, Starlin (Pal/Cle/COT) was not even on Talus, Hexcess was my ONLY main char and at that time she was a Rog/COT/WM and she always had her but handed to her. (The Lost was made long before I even came to Talus).

If this lack of "mage area" was such a problem I wish it would have been brought "gently" to the server's attention before so it didnt have to get to this point.

Now, a quick lesson on NPC building for those of you making comments on this without building knowledge behind you.

In using the built in NWN engine or Wizards to make NPC's (there really isn't any other way), you either a) Start from scratch or b) copy an existing creature template to modify.

When you add level's to a creature, NWN automatically assigns a higher save, higher AB, ups skill points, picks spells and abilities etc for you. Then you go in and give it the finishing touches.

With this mentioned, even with my most strongest char (Starlin) I do not go adventuring in areas I know I shouldn't be in alone. I make a party out of it, invite everyone that I see is relatively high level and take as many with me as I can to share the fun.

If I can't get the people together I just DON'T go in there. There are some characters here that dont like to be large parties and they prefer smaller ones of 2-3. You are going to get creamed with that thinking.

Last night was a perfect example. Lomstel, Starlin, Unthell, Alyssia & (doh! forgot other persons name) the archer dude went to Battle Isle to take off Valniress's head. That was a HUGE huge task. But spending extra time, sharing resources, using REAL tactics besides the common (lets stand here and just kill everything that moves) we managed to accomplish our goal and have an excellent time at it also.

At one point we ALL died to the lag monster. Starlin respawned, took the xp and gold hit, rested, buffed and went right back in there to get the fallen. When we were all done, I couldn't praise Unthell, Argos and Archer dude enough as they were in the low 20's and BI is for the 30+ range. They had such a cool sportsmanship attitude about the 20-30 times they all died lol

The point is, we had fun and the only gripes we had were the amount of times we were crashing. Those guys were real troopers.

There isn't ONE area in all of Talus that is undefeatable, that in itself is unrealistic even for a fantasy game. If it's too challenging for you then just go somewhere else in the 800+ areas to have fun and please, don't complain, recommend.

*Edit note* Just for the record, in designing many of these areas, I specifically look at where to place encounters, how many and how fast a respawn takes and I look at terrain. All this added up does make an area challenging. One of things that I notice in DM mode is that alot of players run willy nilly through out the whole area, set off every single encounter and then try to fight their way out. That AND OR they run ahead most of the time too instead of stopping to see what lies ahead.

If you're going to run or retreat anywhere, ONLY run back over the ground you previously stepped on. Next tip, move forward a bit (30-40 feet in game terms), wait for the creatures to spawn in, see what your up against and then move in.

Next tip, I give most if not many of the creatures a "common" belt that would equal the equivalent of damage resis 20 to the greater belts and some if not many of the monsters have a weakness that can be exploited.

On that note, if you ever want to learn about certain NPC's or areas I've made, make a post here......

lantharslair.proboards10.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=announce&thread=1146340280

There is absolutely NO WAY to make every one happy. I'm just trying to appease the majority.

Any other recommendations?

-LT

[mercurial]

*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*

What LT said .

Man, you'll do anthing to get out of packing wont you!

[Lomstel]

Most people haven't been on Talus long enough to know most the 40th level characters but you have a number of them that are mages. As you pointed out Deis the mighty pixie queen is one. Now I a as person who has 4 max level characters in different classes, Rogue, Assassin, Fighter, and Wizard, I can tell you there is no easy or great place for any high level character after 32nd level that I have found. Every place that gives you nice xp at that level and above is a death trap if you make an error(sometimes when you don't). I have a 40th level mage (Ghost) and she had same problem as all my other characters. It wasn't any easier or hard do to then my other classes, just different. It comes down to with what Longtide said about look before you jump, and if you can't make the jump figure out how to make it or find a different area. I do hunt alone and with parties. Ghost made her last 10 levels mostly alone. There are other 40th level mages still on the server now, Lanthar, Mek, Slider, and Undergroundman each have one. There are few more that are no longer on the server that also made 40th with mages.
You can do it, it just takes time and plaining.

Don't give up fight,

Lomstel

[slidermike]

dama said:

There has to be a reason why most of the classes played on Talus are fighters & rogues. Especially when they both have pitiful buffs available compared to the various spell casters. How come Deis is the only epic mage that goes adventuring?

I think a mage should be able to kill one challenging monster with one of their best spells.

Hmm, You dont seem to really know how many mages we have then if you think Opal dragons "Deis" is the only mage who goes out adventuring.... We have many mages and we had many more but the players have left for various reasons over time. I myself have 2 mages that go out fighting and i go solo.

You have your own opinion about a mage and a "spell a kill" but that may or may not be shared by the creator of an area. There are so many variables involved in saves and spells etc.. to make a blanket statement that is relevent to them all.
For what its worth, The epic areas on this server were designed for "party adventure". So if a character cant survive, either learn diff tactics or realize that the area is for a party. Its pretty simple.

Oh and the monster saves, while some may be high, they are not inflated by the area creator but rather the result of the build process by the toolset and are inline with a character of that lvl and class, so while the rolls may or may not be doable for your caster, thats just life and maybe you should look into some of the spells that dont require saves.... Hmm, did i give out one of my secrets as a caster who solos all the areas?

[Moonstone]

Im not asking for a spell a kill, im just asking, that epic enemies have their resistance cut just a tad, and maybe all the epic enemies that have improved evasion cut their saves just a tad,

I mean, ok, immune to mind spells (theres goes a list), immune to death, (another chunk of spells but ok, i agree instant death is lame), improved evasion and huge saves kill the rest of spells the mages have and then add resistance to that you slaughter them, i cast flame arrows and watch it do 0 or 1-4 damage (and with average monsters mega hps you need like 10 or more for it to kill one), i personally HATE bigbys and IGMS and wish they never made them in first place but its ONLY spells (BESIDES BUFFS BUT WE AINT TALKING ABOUT THEM) that work. im just asking, that, just like a fighter stands there and can cut through enemines left and right and not even have to worry about rest i would like my spells to work just as well.

im not asking for my magic missle, or my ray of frost to blow up planets, im asking that, can my mage be useful in the party


You seem to go on about being equal to the PCs, but not understanding one key factor
Party of 3-4 vs. 200+ creatures and 2-4 hard core leaders

as for casting fox cunning for more spells, you need to cast the spell, then you must place the spells in the slots, then, uhh, rest, and those bonus spells go bye bye before you cast, I know about defense mage, i even showed a few people a nasty trick with bbod
least mike enjoys it, as for counting on it to hit enemies, it rarely does, go to new battle isle and try it, you wont get to far with it, even against a common archer hehe

[Underground]

Just adding my two cents since Lomstel brought me up

First of all Antigone is not a lvl 40 mage, level 29 actually or around there. And yes Moonstone is absolutely correct that is is 'more' difficult to play a mage. And yes as someone noted this is a limitation of the Bioware implementation... not necessarily Talus.

However, mages are playable here without a doubt. Antigone can do most of Akrona alone (the locks stop her). It just takes ALOT more time then it would with a few of my other characters. But in at least one respect, Antigone is much more efficient then any fighter could be. That is that dragon. She can take it out without breaking a sweat, whereas ANY fighter will need to chug a few potions besides being there for some time.

While I'm sure Longtide's ideas for an area will be interested... and no doubt confusing as hell. It seems like a stopgap measure more then anything. Here I'm going to mention a few things I've seen done on many other servers to off-set this particular failing in Bioware's implementation (after all there are SO many to choose from).

Pets, pets simply don't scale past level 17ish. Pets can be modified in the server files themselves to scale more appropriately.... maybe not all the way to lvl 40; but maybe 30? That being said, there is the potential for abuse. Not only that, there will be a time during the mage's natural lifecycle that their pet overpowers them and they can just walk around with ease. It is fleeting, but worth noting. Also, It is easier to scale the familiar then the summon. For example, as noted above Antigone has issues with locks, and has a pixie familiar Zele (who's also a character btw). Should her pixie be able to pick the locks she can't in Akrona? Maybe, depending on your perspective. But, it most certainly cannot. Of course, even if it could... Antigone would have to remove all the enemies before asking Zele for help (have to protect her little pixie after all). So the long and short of that one, is that there are problems but can be balanced.

On to the next point which is much easier to implement and more common. SLOTS! As said previously, mages simply don't have that many spells available to them for a given day (6 hours I think is the rest time). So, put some slots on gear. Unia, my new drow has the battle mage armor from Akrona and it should most certainly have some slots on it. And there are dozens of other items that could easily fit this bill. Antigone wears the same 'armor' that Xania does (though that may change soon as I see a piece was added more befitting a shadowdancer).

Speaking of which where is the shadow armor from?

Anyway I digress, I would suggest you keep slots off of staffs and weapons though. Antigone gets annoyed enough with the guards telling her to put her staff away, without having to re-slot spells when doing so.

The last one also requires server-side scripting.

The spells can be modified. I've seen spell caps removed or placed higher, damage increased; all sorts of things. In short this comes down to an issue of balance not unlike the summons issues I raised above. Essentially, there is only one reason for a character to go more then 26 levels of wiz/sorc with Bioware's implementation (playability wise): duration. At level 26 all spells have been capped, you aren't getting any more spell slots, your saves aren't increasing... etc.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Nice topic to bring up Moonstone.

[mercurial]

I mentioned casting fox's cunning to improve DC of the spell (which makes it harder for enemies to make their saves(, not the number of slots.

[Moonstone]

only by +1. +2 if lucky, and most my spells they seem to have to roll a 18+ to pass, and the problem with when the spell wears off (least it happens to me) is that it wears off and i lose all my bonus spells and have to readd them (does this with the spell and the ioun stone)

[mercurial]

moonstone said:

only by +1. +2 if lucky,

They all count.

If you are an epic mage then the spell will last for at least 20 hours ... you will have rested by then - don't use it to try and load up spell slots, because as soon as you rest the extra slots dissappear, and it becomes a waste of time.

[Moonstone]

Bahh, not 18 to pass, 2 to pass, my mistake hehe

[Longtide]

Hey Under, cool thought on the familiar and spell capping thingy. Anyone know how to do this? Would we want to do this / look into this?

I think it would be cool to have a real bad a$$ animal familiar with like 300 hp, 20-30 pts damage per hit etc. But not on a badger or anything. With all the scripting talents we have here we should in pet balrogs and such lol.

Anyhow, with balance in mind, I know we can figure this out and come to some kind of middle ground, but I don't think I'll be going into the toolset to start lowering stats, saves, ac's etc. especially to creatures that I did not alter in the first place. (I only modify boss monsters to the detail, otherwise I don't mess with the way NWN assigns saves and abilities.) I think such energy would be better spent in making areas that are not epic so you dont need to have a party to go there.

[slidermike]

IMO (not that its asked for but i give it freely) I don't see lots of scripting changes going to take place this close to the new game release.
What, we have 6 months or so of time left in NwN 1.
While i cant speak for Lan, i dont have the expectation that he would want or be able to run 2 servers simultaniously but who knows.

By the way, anyone else been noticing the nice little changes Mek has been making to things here and there?

Thanks Mek.. I know i have seen a couple of them but i wont mention what since i dont want to ruin them for everyone.

[Longtide]

Another good point Slide. The next coming months are going to see little to none at all changes in the way of big changes or modifications to our game.

[Badwater]

slidermike said:

IMO (not that its asked for but i give it freely) I don't see lots of scripting changes going to take place this close to the new game release.
What, we have 6 months or so of time left in NwN 1.
....

Umm, this may be optimistic. I'll be surprised is NWN2 has been released by October. Further, I'll be very surprised if there aren't aspects of NWN2 that cause me to delay purchase. And I'm not talking hardware.