place for mages

[Moonstone]

Can we please please please have a nice place for epic mages to hunt, Im not very smart and cant make power builts, I know its not meant to hunt solo but would like to hunt in a place that my little mage has a prayer to hunt alone and have alittle fun when all my friends are busy, and i know nearly all fighter/rogue builts solo everywhere and with ease.

I went to fight those Halidian and all i can say is HOLY %$#@, all my spells, 21 greater ruins, and 6 hellballs, and i killed a total of 6 of the 19 on me. I had to pretty much retreat cause i was totally drained of power and had nothing left but a dagger, trying to hit something with higher ac then a mage can hit. Yet, my 19th level fighter/rogue kicks the areas butt with so much ease i can sleep at the keyboard.

I understand places are trying to be made a challenge but seems most builders focus on the fighter/rogue types, but your killing off mages, sure, we can DO a flame arrow, but doing like 20 damage to something with 200+ hp is a drop in bucket, all we have pass epic levels it seems is the Bigbys, IGMS, ILMS, and Acid sheath. And IGMS is becoming more and more unless, and i see the other 4 spells heading that way as well.

So maybe one of these new dungeons, can calm down alittle on the tons of immunties, improved evasion, HIGH saves, and high resistances. and maybe make a mage feel hes something more then a bigby spammer and teleport taxi?

Im sure this post will be flamed but its how I feel sorry

[Longtide]

moonstone said:

all my spells, 21 greater ruins, and 6 hellballs

Holy Epic Spells Batman! Can I ask how you're able to do that?

moonstone said:

I understand places are trying to be made a challenge but seems most builders focus on the fighter/rogue types,

I actually don't focus on anything in particular Opal. After a while and with a few areas behind you, you tend to NOT focus on things you've already done, but rather challenge yourself to do something you've not done before.

moonstone said:

but your killing off mages,

?

moonstone said:

So maybe one of these new dungeons, can calm down alittle on the tons of immunties, improved evasion, HIGH saves, and high resistances.

?

moonstone said:

Im sure this post will be flamed but its how I feel sorry

Opal, I like you, you know that. I also know you have a good finger on the pulse of Talus. Because of this I'd be happy to show you just how wrong you are in your statements of above. Well, not completely wrong, but you're exaggerating here a bit and I don't think it's helping your case.

I got to give you some credit though cause you've caught my interest to make such a place as this (if done completely for mages) would be something different to do, thus interesting to me.

I will look into this some more.

-LT

[mercurial]

I see LT beat me to one post, i'll try to give some suggestions about how a mage, might be able to solo that area. If you are a sorcerer then this may be a little difficult as you may not have access to these spells until next level up - that's why wizards are better IMHO.

Like LT - I don't understand how you got all those Epic Spells, anyhow. To be honest Hellball and Greater Ruin are awfull, I wouldn't touch them unless I had no other feat options, actually Mummy Dust and Dragon Knight are worse.
For Greater Ruin, if you are in the middle of the island, I would think those monsters would make the Fort save for half damage.
For Hellball, if you are in the outer region then the archers will probably make their reflex save, if they have evasion or improved evasion then Hellball is hardly going to scratch them. If they have any resistance to energy then Hellball is going to be reduced too.
So in the outer region you are looking (probably) for a will or fort save spell, both wail and weird fit the mass effect insta-kill criteria here. There is also Circle of Death, plus Phantasmal Killer and FoD to pick off individual targets.

Other very usefull spells that you should/could have in you armory that you don't leave home without are ...

Protection from Evil
Improved Invisibility
Acid Sheath
Death Armor
Fox's Cunning
Elemental Shield
True Seeing
Shadow Shield
Empowered Spell Mantle
Premonition

There are probably some other defensive spells, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. Most of the spells above should probably be extened too.

So there are still some tactics open to you...

1. Cast Greater Sanctuary and then Black Blade of Disaster (BBoD) and stand back, it make take some time for BBoD to do it's work but it will get there eventually. Make sure that you don't disrupt the spell by casting or attacking. I have heard that in the same round that you cast BBoD you can cast Haste on it, but I haven't tried that yet.
2. Tenser's Tranformation - this pretty much beefs you up in a melee environment.
3. Shapechange - A Red Dragon's melee presence should help, the Golem is immune to critical hits (not relevant ... yet). If you have Death Armor, Acid Sheath and Elemental Shield up at the same time then most melee attacks against you are going to hurt them more than you (see Tenser's above).
4. Gate - let your pet Balor do the work for you.
5. Dominate or Hold Monster may be of and an advantage. As you say the Bigby's line can be used to hold of the main boss monster too.
6. Run .

I hope that helps.

[Badwater]

I won't comment on specific tactics; rather, I'd like to offer up some feedback here.

All servers, whether their builders realize it or not, take on a personality. That personality is directly reflected in the builds you will find on that server. Do you want to know the strengths and weaknesses of the server encounters? Look at the builds. Players aren't dumb and it won't matter if a server is RP or hack, they are going to build what works in combat, period.

The last server I was on was run by someone who really only knew how to play an evil rogue and it was reflected in the building of the server. Because he/she could not have played a mage beyond a few cantrips, the only time mages were taken into consideration were if they were beating up on the enemy somehow. The builder seemed to think that the ideal boss was one who could be Dev Crit to death but monster/enemy NPC magical resistence, TS, whatever possible immunities were A-OK. What that resulted in was an epic mage who was at the mercy of the party they were with for being raised. Then after being raised there's the issue of resting because now you're REALLY toast. It was my misfortune to like to play mage types. I was doubly screwed by playing AA along with that, because the only thing more useless than a mage on that server was an archer.

Now Talus is not quite that bad. Even though there are times and spots where my character gets beat up I always thought he had a chance and didn't feel like I needed to buy 20 rezzes to pass out to the people who were going to be constantly raising me. But my mage follows his story and he's a certain build that seems to work well here, and thus is not just sor/wiz.

I've seen Deis in action and have seen what monsters will do to her that a character half her level have no problem with. I've also noticed that she is the only single class high epic mage there is. Why are there no others? Because they would also have their butts handed to them, constantly, so you find various builds but no pure mages. And while it is true that Deis has it very difficult by being a pixie, it is also true that no matter what tactics you suggest she's likely to have some unfortunate rolls and have to high tail it long before others would yawn and decimate all in the area.

I think this is a legitimate building challenge - to create a mage area. And I don't think Moonstone means a mage place where they can yawn and watch the silly epics fighters die too. I think she means a place where mages can use their magic and where if you're not a mage you might as well bring some rezzes so that the mage can raise you. ;D Ok, but seriously, it would be nice to have that place or dungeon where magic counts more than the fact that you have 700 hps and can deliver 150 damage a round. It would be nice to have a place where the other classes dread to tread without an archmage on their side.

Just a perspective, because one's tactics only go as far as the other's builds.

[Inviktus]

mercurial said:

For Hellball, if you are in the outer region then the archers will probably make their reflex save, if they have evasion or improved evasion then Hellball is hardly going to scratch them. If they have any resistance to energy then Hellball is going to be reduced too.

Evasion does not apply to hellball.

www.nwnwiki.org/Epic_spell:_hellball

Oh and I pretty much agree with Opaldragon and Badwater on this.

There are no epic areas where a mage can strut their stuff.

[Longtide]

I'm seeing something I've seen before and I really disslike it when I know the outcome without a doubt. I think the Stones put it best..."I can't get no Satisfaction!".

In EVERY PW this seems to be the one and only common truth. So, with the understanding that I cannot possibly please everyone as everyone has some sort of gripe to complain about, I'm taking on this task cause it interests me. That means, when I'm done with it, I will not be fixing or adjusting anythng but bugs. In other words, like it or leave it or....build it yourself.

Don't mean to sound corny or anything but people seem to forget that "something" is usually better then "nothing".

Give me a few weeks.

-LT

[mercurial]

Hey, I've got nothing against a 'mages rule' area - variety is the spice of life and all. I was just pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a cat (can I get any more cliches in). I know the few times that I have been to the lost, it is almost imperative to have high level mage along.

Being a Wizard of Sorcerer doesn't mean that you have to walk around nuking everything off the planet (thanks for the heads up on Evasion and Hellball). It seems that Moonstone's char is a pixie (sorcerer I presume), so I wouldn't really expect that PC should be getting involved in any melee combat *ever*, but there are other solutions, bringing a friend is always a good one.

I realise that PWs are difficult for mages, due to the rest limitations and monster quantity that you can encounter - however a high level mage is/can be pretty much one of the most powerfull PCs on the server (not that power is everything, but that's kind of the issue at hand here).

I've said it before (and I don't mean to rant or flame) that the game was never really designed to be solo'd, or balanced PvP; it really is all about getting a group of characters that each have a speciality and getting them to work together. The Lost is great for that, you need dumb fighters to take out the minions, and hold off the big boss while the mage does the real damage; you need a rogue to help with traps, and you certainly need an archer to help get you there.

LT, if you have an idea for an area then go for it, and if there is anything I can do to help let me know. I (and others) are really gratefull for all the hard work that you put in. You have created some great encounters, storylines and areas.

I'm on a roll this week,

Mat.

p.s. I think our local resident Gnome merchant is a pure Wizard.

[Longtide]

Don't think I'll be on tonight as I've got this "bug" in me now to do this! Sheesh, there goes all the packing I was supposed to do tonight! Now it's right to the Toolset!

Just want to say, that though sometimes I seem to be my biggest whiner (that's Wine-er, not Weiner!) I really consider building for Talus (thats you guys) a Labor of Love. I'm all over this one in design.

Any suggestions for a level range, encounters, etc would be greatly appreciated!

-LT

[slidermike]

can you make it scale LT ?
Lets say the low 20+ all the way up to 40?

Just as long as its epic. Thats the characters we are discussing having issues with for the Deis type of build... all post epic.

[mercurial]

Lvl 40 pure monks with ESR .. oh wait .

I am not sure really what mage's battle best ... I would say other mages really - get into a spell battle ... use Mord's, Spell Breaches, Spell Mantles etc. Get some good summons going, some dismissals, control undead that kind of thing.

How about some form of Island .. I know it's always an Island ... maybe with a tower (mage's love towers). Have some wacko Necromancer on there, throw some Pale Master levels (10) in so that he (or she) becomes immune to Critical Hits - that should keep the dex based builds away. If the Necromancer has Premonition & Epic Warding loaded up should make him hard to hit for normal melee chars too, maybe even some Epic Damage Reduction. Sorcerer may have a little more power (less options though) .. you could throw some Blackguard levels in too for some Dark Blessing, then again if the boss' saves get too high then some spells aren't going to get through.

He could have a pet (Demi-)Lich or two, plus throw in some other undead minions, and some trainee mages (different levels novice, apprentice etc). Undead heavy may make it a target/mecca for Clerics and Paladins, but we don't have too many undead areas right now.

Not sure how mages cope against undead, at least zombies move slowly enough ... and they have undeath to death which is a pretty usefull spell.

My thoughts...

[Badwater]

Thx, LT, and please don't get the impression here that there is any negative feedback on the areas you build. That's precisely what is not being said. The bogs, plains, halidian areas, BI, etc. are all a blast, so don't take any of this as a negative.

What I'm trying to say is that if one plays a pure mage, this issue is the elephant in the living room that no one seems to see. It's not a reflection of the quality of building that has gone on. And my personal belief is that any server is a dynamic entity and always looking for ways it can try to be better than it is. So thx for taking that kind of challenge on.

For suggestions - I think I would try to envision the kind of place and encounters where being an epic mage counts. The kind of place where magic needs to be used quicker than a rogue can read a scroll, y'know? Maybe somewhere that a Silent Spell feat or Quicken Spell really matters.

The challenging thing about designing for mages may be in understanding how they can differ from other classes, primarily in attacking. A mage can have a wide array of possible attacks that can be quickly changed in terms of the spectrum of the attack and the time needed to change attacks. I'm kind of rambling but maybe that's enough to spark some ideas. Also, perhaps some enemy items can be created that help this kind of design.

Time for a nap. lol You need naps when you get old! If there's anything I can help with, let me know.

[mercurial]

Quicken Spell has become an obsolete feat with all the Perma-haste items on the server.

[Inviktus]

longtide said:

I'm seeing something I've seen before and I really disslike it when I know the outcome without a doubt. I think the Stones put it best..."I can't get no Satisfaction!".

Oh yes, and I fully expect down the road, should a mage specific area be made, there will be a post to the effect of "What the !@#$, only mages can beat this! That is so $#@!".

It's just how people are.

I still think having one isn't a bad idea.

[slidermike]

mercurial said:

Undead heavy may make it a target/mecca for Clerics and Paladins, but we don't have too many undead areas right now.

Not sure how mages cope against undead, at least zombies move slowly enough ... and they have undeath to death which is a pretty usefull spell.

My thoughts...

Thats funny Mat! ;D
If you think that the entire undead city of akrona and also the undead that populate several of BI areas including the old FB fort isnt "many" places for undead i am surprised at you!
If you want to see a mage against some undead nasties, Zypher can take you to the grand version of zombies that populate BI and watch him slice his way thru them with nothing more than his buff spells and sword. He goes there for fun probably every week or two just to lay low a few undead who dont seem to realize their supposed to stay dead. Those grand blade elders have some nice armor and swords on them that do neg damage to you and a mage buff is perfect for it and their AC is low enough that a mage can hit them often.

[Badwater]

slidermike said:

Thats funny Mat! ;D
If you think that the entire undead city of akrona ....

If I'm not mistaken, most of Akrona is Aberrations, not undead. They may represent undead, but if you want to try and turn them whilst you die go right ahead.